Mark Driscoll and the Cult of Men

The video speech below is the prime reason why women should flee the church in droves. Don’t stop. Don’t look back, but get thee hence immediately! Who wants to be slaves to these “Christian soldiers” who want to “have sex with their wives at least once a day?” Uh, no thanks. The Internet Monk gives Driscoll somewhat of a free pass, but does call him out on the daily sex quote. I’m sorry, but women are not “comfort women” so that men can get the church moving and their missions going. Driscoll and his ilk should just set up their man-church and be done with it. At least we’ll know where they are and avoid them like the plague.  ICK!

About mysteryofiniquity

M.A. in English and curator of a houseful of books. Pop Culture addict. Mythology purveyor.
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54 Responses to Mark Driscoll and the Cult of Men

  1. tobeme says:

    Wow! Amazing how one sided a persons mind can be. What a throwback in time.
    The obvious message which is missing is one of love, one of an understanding that faith, belief is not an issue of gender.
    Amazing, not in a good way.

  2. My kids use to count the number of times I said a particular word in a sermon for fun especially ones I tended to repeat.

    A great exercise would be to count the number of times he says “men” in this video.

    I 100% support Bill Hybels for publicly criticizing this video (see


  3. tobeme,
    Good point. It’s a very gendered Christianity. It’s like those men only churches. Where in the world is all this heading?

  4. aA,

    I’d really LOVE to know what words garnered the highest count in your sermons! :-)

    Yes, just when I think I’m going back to it all and try it ONE MORE time, I run across things like this. Thank Serendipity and all the goddesses that be for saving me the trouble. Whew!

  5. Noogatiger says:

    What a piece of &%$ this guy is. Once a day, ROTFLMAO. Only if he marries 31 wives, and even then one week of the month is still out of the question, if they all synchronize that special time.
    This is like a Cult Manifesto. Holy Cow this guy is sad.

    You know if someone really has “The Truth” and really preached a message of love, why would you need this militaristic approach?

    Could it be that the 20 year old guy he mentions has actually figured out that it isn’t “The Truth”, nor is it presented with much, if any, Love.

    Sure Churches seem to offer total love and acceptance at first but after you’re in there for awhile you will see lots of condemnation and judgmental attitudes and very little acceptance.

    It is only apropos that he is standing in a graveyard. I give him 10 years and he will no longer be “one of the men” in ministry himself.

    What a tool.

  6. Noogatiger,
    Yes, the military graveyard was a nice touch, wasn’t it. “Soldiers” for Christ. It’s almost scary in its implications. Is he gearing up for all out war? On who?

    Anyway, the video’s worth it just to hear a preacher say “banging their girlfriends” with a straight face. Sheesh!

  7. Rebecca says:

    “force them by God’s grace”

    Hmm, does God’s grace include force?

    “they want to know how to have sex with their wife at least once a day”

    Did he just say that? And this is a man of “God” who others consider an authority on Scripture.

    Wonder if the sex involves force too…by God’s grace of course. :-(

  8. Rebecca,
    Yes, he did just say that. I couldn’t believe it. It sounds almost cultish. Weird.

  9. steffles says:

    Somebody shoot him.

  10. steffles,
    LOL :-)

  11. Noogatiger says:

    You know, I had to watch it again. Like watching a train wreck I suppose.

    What are the chances that he was describing himself at 20. I would bet my life savings on it.

    In other news a local pastor near me was arrested in a Prostitution sting. Yep, I guess he wasn’t getting that once a day stuff. I would also bet that Mr. Mark Driscoll is a guy who would do something like that one day. He just seems like that kind of guy to me. God only knows what he is hiding behind this facade.

    I heard a preacher a few weeks ago say: You have to put God first in your life if you ever expect it to get better.
    I sooooooo disagree. My view is this: Put yourself, your spouse and your family first in your life, show them each and everyday how much you love them and prove it with your actions, then your life probably will get better, and you will then and only then have a place for faith to fit in somewhere.

  12. Noogatiger wrote: “Put yourself, your spouse and your family first in your life, show them each and everyday how much you love them and prove it with your actions, then your life probably will get better, and you will then and only then have a place for faith to fit in somewhere.”

    This is so true. I nearly destroyed my own marriage with fundamentalist fantasies of how husbands and wives were “supposed” to be according to the bible. Fortunately my husband was having none of that. Thank goodness I came to my senses in time. My sister, however, is making the same mistakes I did and driving her husband away with fundie nonsense.

  13. Rebecca says:

    What Nooga said.

  14. post23 says:

    I belive that a man and a woman are equal in Christ, but i also believe that a man is head of woman, just like the bible says…the bible gives Jesus as mans example and the church as the bride…a real christian man should serve his bride just as Jesus served, and a women should submit to her man just as the church submits to Jesus…

  15. post23,
    Spoken like a true fundamentalist.

  16. post23 says:

    ephesians 5:22-33

    theres no more that needs to be said…the bible is the final authority..

  17. post23,

  18. Rebecca says:

    Sounds to me like Mark Driscoll is the final authority.

    What is very typical in the churches where Mark abides is that women and men simply take Mark’s word for it. Why?

    Because he states that the Bible is the final authority. People just believe him, without doing any study on it themselves. It’s like something happens and they figure that if Mark/pastor says it, then it’s true because well Mark/pastor believes the Bible, knows the true interpretation, no need for me to do any study on it, he’s done my work for me.

    Mark says, the Bible says it, Mark knows what the Bible says. The Bible is authoritative. Mark knows what the Bible says, so Mark’s authoritative. End of the issue. The Bible says it and that’s good enough for me means the same thing as Mark said it and that’s good enough for me.

  19. Rebecca,
    This is why it’s pointless to talk to fundie men. They’ve not got an original thought in their heads. They can’t think creatively, they can only speak what other fundie men (or the bible, i.e. fundie men) have told them.

    It makes you wonder why they bother to comment on women’s blogs at all since we aren’t “allowed” to speak in church except to our husbands. The only answer obvious to me is spiritual “cock-sure” pride. Talk about peacock syndrome. :-)

  20. Rebecca says:


    It might be pointless but sometimes it’s fun. ;-)

  21. post23 says:

    i just wrote down what ephesians 5 says, have you ever read it…

    also, mark makes it very clear to test everything he says by scripture. he never says that he is final authority.

  22. post23,
    Gee, no, I’ve never read the bible. NOT. Obviously you’ve not read anything else on this site and are just here to cause trouble. Be off with you.

  23. Noogatiger says:

    Is the Bible really and truly your final authority?
    Then you believe in Unicorns, Dragons, talking snakes, talking Jack-Asses, (no not you), 4 legged insects and that stripped donkeys can be made by having them look at stripped sticks?

    If the Bible is your final authority, then you must believe the earth is flat? You must believe that the stars are small lights simply hung on some outer firmament? You must believe that polygamy is OK? You must think that slavery is OK? You must think that it is OK to rape women and kill little babies as long as it is in a battle scenario – genocide? You must believe that God has created a great ruse and has deceived us with the illusion of star light taking millions of years to reach us, when in reality he just created the light already here, so that what we see out there didn’t really happen like it appears? You must believe that women are not allowed to speak at all in Church?

    Finally, if the Bible is your final authority I am sure that you are confused as hell about Hell right now. New information has shown that the concept of an eternal hell fire did not exist in the original writings of the Bible, it was added later from pagan origins. That must chaff your ass where the preservation of God’s word is concerned?

    So even if we don’t believe the Bible there pb&j, at least we will not go to hell, even by your own messed up book.

    I am just betting that the Bible is not your final authority on most of these issues either. I just bet you have learned better on a lot of them.

  24. Noogatiger,
    I wondered how long it would take you to respond to post23! :-)

    I have no stomach for debates with fundie men. This is where I stand back and watch you at work, demolishing puny arguments from the bible with the sword of reason. Love it. LOOOOOVE it!

  25. post23 says:

    do you claim to be a christian?

    matthew 25:31-46
    vs 41 talking to the wicked, depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. vs 46 wicked will go away into eternal punishment…

    this will be my last reply…

    “New information has shown that the concept of an eternal hell fire did not exist in the original writings of the Bible, it was added later from pagan origins.”

    where is this so called new information…

    you people have very hard hearts. the bible says God resists the PROUD, but gives grace to the humble…

  26. Noogatiger says:

    Post 23,
    No, I don’t claim to be a Christian, at least not now.
    I was a Christian for 39 years, a saved, born-again, fundamentalist Baptist Christian.

    Then I made the biggest mistake a cult member can make. I began to study the Bible for myself. I began to look at the bible to see if it really could be the truth, and why, and if there was any proof of this. I began to look at the origins of the Bible, the development of the Canon of the Bible, who wrote the Bible, who translated the Bible, and who selected the books of the Bible, and if this was really truth or not. Let me just say that it was an eye opening experience.

    I will not go into detail about my journey out of the Fairy tale beliefs but let me say this: The Bible is full of errors, either scientific errors, or misquotes, or contradictions, or just flat out made up stories which never even happened. The stories of creation and Noah’s flood don’t match the natural world evidences we see around us. It is full of moral problems. For years I, like you probably, only read the good stuff, about love, about how great God was and how much he loved us. Oh, we did read the old wrath of God stuff in the Old Testament sometimes, but hey, that was just a different time and place, and God doesn’t deal with man that way anymore. (Thank God). However, when I began to look a little more critically at this book it was easy to see the problems with it. Genocide condoned by God, Rape condoned by God, Slavery condoned by God, Polygamy condoned by God, Misogyny, Failed Prophecies, inconsistencies in the stories told and yes even in the life of and events surrounding the life of Jesus. The New Testament quotes books of the Apocrypha. Mark has the date of Jesus birth listed at the wrong time under the wrong ruler. Matthew quotes a supposed prophecy from the wrong book of the Old Testament, and the actual reference was not even a prophecy.

    As for hell, here are a couple of references for you:

    Finally Post23, as I said before; If the bible is your final authority, do you or your church follow these scriptures:

    •1 Corinthians 11:3-10 – “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head,a since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.”

    •1 Corinthians 14:33-35 – “For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

    Do you or your church allow women to speak at all in church? If so who gave you this authority? Isn’t the Bible your final authority? Your women should keep totally silent in your church and only ask their husbands any questions at home, if the Bible is really your final authority. So is it, or not?

    Do you make your wives and girlfriends and daughters cover their heads. If not who gave you the authority to go against the word of God? Have you had their hair cut off? Isn’t the Bible your final authority? Well, is it or not?

    Post23, maybe you should start to think for yourself as well. If the Bible were truly our final authority, we would still have multiple wives, own slaves, and all our women would be wearing burqas like the women in the middle east. Even Jesus himself said that he came not to eliminate the Old Testament laws, but to fulfill them. That means that they would still be in effect today.

    Our society has advanced in the liberation of women from oppression because of secular society and the advancement of basic human enlightenment, not because of the Bible, in fact it has happened actually in opposition to what the Bible teaches, and the women in your church should be thankful to someone because of that. No thanks to the God of the Bible however.

    Post23; the search for truth and the ability to believe something on faith are not mutually inclusive, in fact they are just the opposite.
    Someone famous said that……..MOI, I think.

  27. Noogatiger says:

    By the way Post23,
    You said: “you people have very hard hearts. the bible says God resists the PROUD, but gives grace to the humble…”

    So where is your grace. You said this right after condemning us to an eternal hell fire………NICE.

  28. Noogatiger says:

    OH, OH, I just thought of another one.
    I think it was Paul who gave the intructions that believers should always greet each other with a holy kiss. There is nothing which ever repealed this command from Paul.

    Sooooooo Post23, is the Bible your final authority?
    How many brothers have you kissed? Of course if your female and you don’t have your head covered, and you speak in church you should get your head shaved, and probably be stoned for kissing the brothers.

  29. Noogatiger,
    LOL.. :-) How about we all give post23 a big, wet, sloppy “holy” kiss!

  30. Pingback: Christian Patriarchy and Women's Self-Censorship « Agnostic Atheism

  31. Andrew says:


    I want to help clear things up for you…You were never a Christian. You don’t love Jesus and you don’t honor and fear the LORD. May the LORD of Hosts set His face against you until you turn back and repent from your wickedness. Your prideful and arrogant heart has caused the LORD to resist you. Post23 didn’t condemn you, Jesus Christ did. He is your stumbling block to trip you up.

  32. Folks, meet God in the flesh: It’s Andrew and he knows whether you are really a Christian or not. He sees inside your head and heart. Since Andrew is God’s mouthpiece, I can now say with certainty, that I’m an atheist. Thank you Andrew…er…I mean God….for clarifying.

  33. Andrew says:

    God in the flesh is Jesus Christ, and you have already rejected Him, so the LORD rejects you.

  34. Now that we’ve got that cleared up. :-)

  35. Noogatiger says:

    You know Andrew I would just tell you to go to hell, but damn, there isn’t one. So, neither of us will wind up there. Good thing too, otherwise most of humanity would have wound up going there since most of the world never even heard the gospel message of peace and love and acceptance which you offer.

    I mean you stated the obvious when you said that I don’t love Jesus or fear the Lord. I don’t even know if there is a God up there somewhere, and obviously neither does anyone else. However if he is, then he didn’t just give us a free will, in fact he has abandonded us, to disease, to disasters, to terror, to make our own way in this world with no physical help from him at all.

    There is just something wrong with; “ I really, really, love you, but if you don’t’ love me back, even if you never heard of me, I will burn your sorry ass in hell fire forever.” Sound’s like a sick kind of love to me. Sort of like a fatal attraction, just like the movie.

    Anyway, Andrew I know it scares the hell out of you, (oh there I go again), to think that someone who really and truly believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who repented of their sins and asked Jesus to come into their heart, who believed that Jesus Christ was God, the son of God, the word in flesh, who died for me, who took my sins upon the cross and who rose again to intercede for me with the Father, and take me one day to live in one of those mansions, and trusted that we had his very word delivered to us in the King James Bible, and did this from age 9 to 49, would ever find it to all be a big fairy tale, but hey I was, I did, and it is.

    If Jesus Christ can truly save, I was by all measures saved.
    If Jesus Christ can actually make me a new creature, I was by the definition a new creature in the Lord.
    If Jesus Christ could cause me to be born again, I was according to the terminology born-again.
    If ever there ever were a true believer, I was, for 39 years.

    However, the bible was written by men, a lot of them not very good men and not God. It is plainly obvious without too much study. However I understand it hurts to realize you have been duped, lied to, and in a cult for so long.

    Jesus himself did not write down a single word of scripture for us. Not one. The New Testament was pulled together by popular vote of the church councils of the day, not a divinely guided process at all.

    Jesus was probably a pretty good man, but not God, not resurrected, not sitting on the right hand of God now, not coming back to get us all one day, and his death did not save anyone from hell, (which doesn’t even exist anyway), nor will praying to him with all your faith change very much in your lives.

    Finally, maybe the Lord of Hosts should try showing me a little love instead of turining his face against me and then and maybe then I would repent of my wickedness.

    Hey I am an easy going type guy.

  36. Noogatiger says:

    OH, by the way there Andrew:

    Think about this for a moment, there once was a man who had a reputation that he enjoyed eating a lot, drinking a little too much Wine and hanging around with the wrong crowd of people, (sinners). Who was he,,,,,,,,Well, he was Jesus.(Matthew 11:18-19) Now that is the type of person I could hang out with? I bet you wouldn’t. This guy hated the stuck up, self-righteous Pharsees, who made up new rules to make themselves appear more righteous. He had to feel sort of funny hanging out with the sinners if he really thought that he would be sending them to hell pretty soon.

    So in light of that I do have a couple of favorite Bible verses:

    Eclesiastes 9:7 : Go on and enjoy life, celebrate good food and drink your Wine with a joyful heart, for now is the time of the favor of God.

    Deuteronomy 14:26 Take your money and go purchase a side of beef or a rack of lamb and few bottles of wine and/or a case of beer and then have a cookout and celebrate with your friends and family here in front of God and everyone.

    You know, I think I will let the Bible be my guide in these matters.

  37. Daisy says:

    I spent the morning at the hairdressers. All of the ladies present are Christians. There was much church talk. I was involved in the non-church talk. Things like health, aging and being a woman of middle-age and beyond.

    A woman I met for the first time told the hairdresser how much she enjoyed talking with me. The hairdresser said, yes, isn’t she (that would be me) sweet. I should have her in here all the time. (Yes I heard the entire conversation. It was said in front of me.)

    As my hair was being shampooed I wondered. If they knew I was an agnostic atheist, would it have made any difference to any of them?

    Love your blog.

  38. Daisy,

    Yes, I believe it would make a tremendous difference if they knew. For some reason, that shuts down the door of communication with any people who are religious. I believe it’s fear, plain and simple. They are so afraid of contamination.

    Thanks for reading! :-)

  39. Andrew says:


    Truth isn’t what you believe, truth is what is real.

    Arguing with you about the bible (which you don’t even believe in) will do you or me no good.

    Someone lied to you about Jesus Christ. Jesus is full of love and JUSTICE. In His love, He would save you if you truly would repent. Repenting isn’t a one time thing, it is a lifestye. Praying some stupid prayer will not save you…It never says pray a prayer to get saved in the bible. That’s a man made idea.

    Have you ever told a lie? Just one? What does that make you? Yes, a liar. It doesn’t take seven lies to be a liar, just one. Have you ever stolen anything despite it’s value (a pencil, some money, etc…)? That makes you a thief…Have you ever hated someone so much you didn’t ever want to see them again? Jesus says that when we hate someone in our heart, it is the same as commiting murder!

    So, I guess you are not a good person. But hasn’t everyone done those things at least once in their lifetime? Yes! In fact, the bible says, their are none that are righteous, not even one. On top of that, those things ( lying, stealing, murdering) are just three of the ten commandments. There are seven others we haven’t even looked at. One day, you are going to die, and on that day you will stand before Jesus, the righteous and just judge (Hebrews 9:27). You will be found guilty of breaking His law and commiting what He calls Sin. The bible also says that the wage of your sin is death and seperation from God (Romans 6:23). So, for every lie you have told, every little thing you have stolen, you owe an equal amount of lives, but you only have one. Do you see your problem? On the day you are judged for everything you have done in secret and in public, Jesus, in His great justice will have no choice but to throw you into Hell forever. Not because you are a good person, but because you broke His law and therefore, you are a lawbreaker. Furthermore, Hell is not a weekend getaway but an eternally lasting place.

    Bad news huh? But their is good news!

    The good news is this. Jesus, while He is just, is also compassionate. He desires none to perish but all to have eternal life and fellowship with Him (2 Peter 3:9). In His great love and mercy, He sent His only Son Jesus into the world to rescue sinners (John 3:16). Jesus did what we could not do by being born of a virgin, living a perfect sinless life, and finally dying on a cross, once for all, for the sins that have stained us from birth. He paid the price for what you owed and then took your sin, shame, and guilt and placed it upon Himself.(Isaiah 53:4-6). So, on the day of judgement, we are hopeless and doomed to Hell unless Jesus is standing beside us as our Advocate. Unless Jesus has taken your sins upon Himself and paid the wage for your sin, you will pay the price of eternal punishment.

    This gift cannot be earned or bought. You cannot ever do enough good to deserve it since you already have done enough bad to deserve hell (Ephesians 2:8-10).

    It is not enough to just believe that Jesus is real and believe that God exists. Even Satan and his demons believe that Jesus is real and they will no doubt be thrown into Hell (James 2:19).

    So what must we do to be saved? Come humbly before God, because He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). Cry out to Him from a believing heart and repent of all your sins. Repentance is more than asking for forgiveness, it is turning from your sins. Stop doing the things you used to do, (lying, stealing, hating, etc…) and put on the new life that Christ freely gives.

    One more question:

    Would you trade your eyes for a million dollars? Ten million? No! Because they are very important and precious to you. Which is more important, your soul or your eyes? If your soul matters to you, give this some thought.

  40. Daisy says:

    Thanks Mystery of Iniquity. Today I guess I contaminated them with love, compassion and kindness. :-)

  41. Noogatiger says:

    “Truth isn’t what you believe, truth is what is real.”

    Wow Andrew that is profound especially coming from a true believer, because nobody, not even you can prove that what you believe about this book or God is really real, so it is somewhat of oxymoron for a true believer to even make that statement. You have to accept this book and what it says on blind arbitrary faith Andrew, just like everyone else who believes it. You don’t know for sure if any of it is real either, you just hope it is.

    So, what is real Andrew?
    So, what is truth Andrew?

    You can’t just proclaim that the Bible is real, or truth, simply because you believe it, or just because it gives you warm fuzzy feelings inside, or just because lots of other people believed it. That flies right in the face of your statement above.

    First of all you made the statement above and then you went on to give me a long Sunday School lesson to tell me what you believe and where I am going to go, based upon your beliefs. You didn’t tell me what is real, because if what you said was real, there would be proof and it would be verifiable, it would be consistent, it would hold up under scrutiny. Truth would match the physical world. If you had what was real then all the skeptics in the world could not break it down, but they have. The Bible simply cannot pass a peer review, it does not hold up, it is full of errors, both scientific and otherwise. It is not consistent morally. It was not even sent down from heaven in some divine process. It was written by men, gathered together by men, selected by men, translated by men, added to and edited by men and those are the real facts Andrew.

    So, don’t tell me what you believe Andrew, tell me what is real.

    In fact Andrew, (and anyone else), here are 40+ questions every Christian should be able to answer, if this Bible is real truth:

    Can you give me “Real” answers for all of them?

  42. Andrew says:

    This will be my last post…

    Noogatiger, please don’t die in your sins…

  43. Noogatiger says:

    I won’t, I will probably die in a hospital, or at home late one night in my briefs. However as you said all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, so you will die in yours as well.

    If you have any Truth, Real Truth, and nothing but The Truth Andrew, I am all ears. Really show me the proof? So far all you have given us is your beliefs and your faith, and that does not even meet the very definition of Truth which you yourself gave us.

    Don’t live your life in a Fairy Tale Andrew, I do care about you, otherwise I would just leave you alone, but I hate to see people living their lives as if Santa Claus is going to answer their prayers and take them one day to live in the big toy factory in the sky.

    There is no Hell. Even in your original Bible, so you don’t even have to worry about that one any more yourself.

    There is love after you come out of the cult of religion Andrew. The love one human being is capable of having for other human beings. All of the civil rights and asic human rights we have today came through the advancement of human enlightenment, not through the Bible or the Church. What we know about our physical world came through science, not God’s supposed Word.

    Set yourself free from the oppression of the fairy tale cult religions. Experience the freedom of thinking for yourself, and being honest with your feelings and realize that things can be understood through the process of critical thinking and all of a sudden all of that fog in your head will go away. You will begin to see that you can make sense of the world around you, without all of those confusing, contradictory, immpossible to understand scriptures which make no sense. It is called the mind set free.

    Andrew, Study the origins of the Bible. Really study it for yourself. Look at things like The Septuigent, the Apocrypha, The book of Enoch, Thomas, etc, etc. Study the hard scriptures, ask yourself why are they even in there. Study Polygamy and the Bible. Study Slavery and the Bible.

    You will begin to see what is real, and what is not.

  44. Micahel says:

    This video was made for a church planting seminar. Driscoll is not emphasizing men over women, he is saying from a strategic stand point, to grow a church you need to make a special effort to align the men. This is a biblical and proven practical concept, Driscoll is simply regurgitating what the Bible says and what chuch planting experience will teach you.

    As for the sex comments, I would refer you to his sermon about sex to delve deeper into what he means. To address his statements properly you must first understand that he is operating out of the viewpoint that sex outside of marriage is destructive and sex inside marriage is a gift from God, then go from there.

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    I say this with the most love I can and don’t mean to be argumentative, but if you don’t believe what the bible says, everything that Driscoll says will seem like foolishness, this discussion is one of presuppositions, not principals. Do you presume Jesus is God? Or not? From this point of departure this video will make sense or not.

    As for some comments further down the page about God’s grace you must also approach this theologically from the standpoint of soft Calvinism. This enormous theological concept in brief states that God pursues his children, and at times God’s saving love comes into conflict with our destructive sin nature. This is some discussions would bring about people presuming that God “forces” his grace on people. As someone who has had His grace forced on me, praise be to God. I am a sinner by nature from my mother’s womb, and I by no means have the proclivity or even a leaning toward to actions of saved Christian. It was God’s active grace that changed me to empower me to do what I would never be able to do on my own. That is grace, grace by it’s nature is forceful.

    For more on this I would encourage you to listen to Driscoll’s sermon on Ephesians 1. His illustration of his naked child trying to run away from him and into traffic I think is particularly powerful when talking about God’s grace.

    [audio src="" /]

    Anyhow, I hope I have not made anyone angry by posting a “rebuttal” my intent is to add information not anger (as the internet and blog commenting tends to do in the absence of face to face discussion).

    In closing though, much of this discussion must be tempered by first asking yourself where you stand with Jesus. If you don’t love Jesus and his literal word, then everything any Christian says will tend to be offensive, it is not the Christian, but the Christ who is offensive, and it is his absolute truth that will offend the non-believer. The reason so many people find Driscoll offensive is because he regurgitates the bible.

  45. Micahel says:


    I apologize for your harsh treatment by Christians on this blog. The thing I hate that Christians do is that they start with sin in their discussion with non-believers when they should be starting with love. I apologize that you haven’t been loved by the very people who should be doing it.

    You mentioned you wanted proof in your last comment. So I will direct you to some of the best proof I know of. Here are 2 mp3 lectures by a guy named Ravi Zacharias. He is a Christian, but he’s also a philosopher. I think it’s important to start at a place like this because you seem to be the type, like me, that will lean on reason and over arching principals to make evaluations. Ravi discusses Christianity on this level of philosophy and will prepare the ground for a better understanding of it (maybe-who knows).

    Why I am not an atheist:
    Part 1:
    Part 2:

    If you like his style he has a billion other mp3s to download:

    Anyhow if you want more information on other areas, let me know, e-mail me at, I’m a graphic designer who sits at work all day long listening to sermons so I know of quite a few good people and places you can listen to, to get information. If you’re the type that responds to reading better than listening, you might like these site too:

    Both sites give discussions on different topics from the Christian perspective. I must warn you though, since you are not a Christian, you will be operating out of a world view with a set of presuppositions that will cause you to disagree with most everything that is said on these sites. This is something that you must battle with if you want to objectively process the proof you asked for.

    Anyhow, I wish you the best of luck, and don’t hesitate to e-mail me if you need any more links to discussions on other topics.


  46. Mike,
    Driscoll can teach all he wants about HIS interpretation of the bible. That doesn’t mean he’s right or that there aren’t other interpretations out there that are just as valid, if not more valid. And even if we love Jesus with all our hearts as you suggest we should (not knowing whether we do or not, but still you assume we don’t), that doesn’t mean we will automatically “wake up” and realize Driscoll is right either. Greater minds than mine have deemed Driscoll’s brand of fundamentalism harmful and far from redemptive for women or men. Mark Driscoll is not the Holy Spirit and neither is the bible.

  47. Micahel says:


    You’re, you have made a good point, I have here made the error elevating a human to the level of gospel, thanks. What I normally admire about Driscoll is that he doesn’t back away from the retelling what the bible says (a singular truth). Driscoll often has a course exposition of his retelling of the bible but I enjoy that he will admit when he has wrongly taught the bible and sticks strictly to a literal interpretation of the bible.

    Here is the point where you and I have met a crossroad. You say the Bible is not the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that the bible is fallible? If you are, this is where you and I (and Driscoll in the process) will depart from a common ground.

    I’m assuming you would fall into the camp of people who would say that you and I have the power to interpret and reinterpret the bible, the bible has no authority, but the interpreter does. Is this correct?

    If you are, would you mind me asking some questions on your perspective. In my walk with Christ and my process, I never reached a point of assuming the bible was fallible, I assumed it’s inherency from the beginning and skipped over this potential stumbling block.

    1. When sitting down to look at the bible, how do you choose what is right or wrong? What are the interpretive criteria?
    2. How do you deal with other people with a low view of scripture who might contradict you? In other words, what system is there for valuing your interpretation as correct versus someone else’s?
    3. What is your viewpoint on absolute truth? How do you reconcile the philosophical argument that in declaring the non-existence of an absolute truth, we create an absolute truth?
    4. Depending on what you say to three, where do you derive your absolute truth?
    5. If the Bible is fallible, why is it worthy of being used as a jumping off point for anything? If we are assuming a trajectory hermeneutic, where we consider the bible like a website link where just click on it to jump to whatever miscellaneous conclusion that results. How do we know the website even works and isn’t just a spammers hoax or a dead link (hopefully this metaphor hasn’t gotten to confusing – sorry)? More basically – how do we derive (absolute?) truth from something inaccurate? Can it be trusted?
    6. (this question might come across as biting, and I don’t want it to, I am honestly curious and I would love it if you answered honestly) How much of your interpretation is simply your preference due to your life experience? I came across your website not through the front page, but as a deeper link through Google, but after a quick glance through a couple of posts, I noticed much of your differences with the bible revolve around its patriarchal tradition. Have you been spurned by a significant man in you life?
    7. Do you think our three pound fallen brain tissue is capable of creating truth (absolute or not)? If it is material and we assume the atheistic view of matter, do we know that our truth is transcendental or just a chemical reaction between our ears?
    8. Spiritually, if the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the bible, how do we reconcile it here in terms of this conversation, I guess specifically in reference to your claim that the bible is not the Holy spirit?

  48. Micahel,
    (deleted all parts of my post to this point)
    6. Ok, I thoughtfully typed out my answers to all five points until I reached this point without having read it ahead of time and I must say, once again, I’m disappointed. It’s here that I end our discussion. Right here, you have confirmed what feminists have always contended is true. That men (especially fundamentalist men) cannot accept women, our arguments, our thoughts, or our scholarship without turning it around and using the oh, so tired finger-pointing argument that we must have come by our own ideas via an “emotional,” “hormonal,” or “spurned by a man” experience. Please, that’s so unworthy of comment. I would expect as much from a Driscoll disciple and only confirms the danger of his thinking. Nothing I write will ever change that idea about women for you, so it stops here because it’s not worth my time. Obviously, I’ve already wasted my time answering your first five points.

    Other men who wish to respond, Read the Blog Rules first.

  49. Michael says:

    I apologize for offending you. I did not intend to. My intent was to not bring about the assumptions that you mention, but to ask the question of personal experience’s effect on our interpretation of life and theology. I do not think that women are the stereotype that you assume, but was seeking how personal bias effected things. To my point even Christians show biases in their Theology. During the Jesus movement of the 1970’s the founders of the Vineyard denomination were all flower children, drug users, and some even homosexuals. This significantly impacted their theology. I apologize for offending you, it was not my intent. Even men I know have their experiences shaped by heart break that changes the way they think and view life.

    best of luck in life


  50. Mike,
    Perhaps you should meditate on the experiences that formed your theology as well, one that rushes to judgment and assumes an ulterior motive for valid opinion. Ditto on the luck.

  51. Noogatiger says:

    Michael, Michael, Michael,
    First of all you make the mistaken assumption which a lot of people do about me or those of us who reject the Bible. While it is true that I no longer believe the Bible to be from God at all, I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic. There may be a God. My position is that nobody knows, nobody. There simply is no proof, only leaps of faith, and faith is arbitrary. Who decides which faith is the right one?

    A persons experience does not prove God. A persons faith does not prove God. A persons feelings does not prove that God is really there.

    Here is why I no longer believe the Bible is from God:
    1. Matthew, Mark and John are simply wrong about prayer and how it should work.
    2. Luke has the time of the Birth of Christ wrong, and many other Bible stories have different times or different details from book to book.
    3. The Development of the Canon of Scripture itself was not a divine process.
    4. Starlight, which takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years to reach us.
    5. Scientific and cosmological problems in the Bible.
    6. Contradictions, (many, many of them)
    7. False Prophecies.
    8. Falsely Claimed Prophecies which are not prophecies at all.
    9. Hell, does not exist, never did, even in the original Bible writings, and was a false doctrine added to the Bible by the new Church to scare the hell out of people.
    10. Condones Slavery.
    11. Condones Polygamy.
    12. Women are property.
    13. Women are commanded to keep silent in Church.
    14. Finally, all those commandments in Deut. And Leviticus are simply immoral, disgusting and reprehensible. They alone show that this book is a book by men, about men, for men, and the God they dreamed up who would condone their slave owning women hating ways.

    This book is not from God, Michael. It simply can’t be and be this messed up.
    So, no I will not let the Bible be my moral guide, I have higher morals than that. Where did my morals come from, well they came from my parents, my own sense of right and wrong, my community, my nation from all of humanity. Yes we can decide what is right and wrong for ourselves. We actually have been since the dawn of our time.

    I used to be a born again Christian, but I can no longer keep deceiving myself about this book.

    You mentioned absolute truth. How do you determine what is absolute truth Michael?
    Do you simply assume the Bible is absolute truth? How do you know? What proofs do you have? It is your feelings? Is it simply a blind arbitrary leap of faith? Michael, if anything is claimed to be an absolute truth, then there will be absolute proof, right? The Bible does not have this. There is much more evidence at the moment that the things in the Bible did not happen and is wrong on so many things. So what is your basis that this book is absolute truth other than your blind faith.

    MOI, said it best in one of her blogs: The willingness to believe something on faith and the search for truth are not the same things. In fact they are just the opposite.

    P.S – Driscoll is a prime example of exactly the kind of warped individual that adherence to this misogynistic book will produce. To the Bible, women were property and second class citizens like slaves. We should seek a higher morality than the Bible presents to us.

  52. Noogatiger says:

    Hey Michael,
    I have a question for you.

    What is sin?

    1. Is it something that is an absolute bad and evil, therefore God hates it?


    2. Is it just something God hates, therefore it is defined as a sin and evil by God?

    If it is #1, then even God really had no choice in the matter, because the absolutes would have existed even without him, correct? (I mean they are absolute, right?) Also if it is absolute, then we would have figured it out even without God, eventually, right?

    If it is #2, then isn’t it all, (sin and righteousness), just an arbitrary whim of God to decide what he likes and what he doesn’t, since he created it all himself anyway? I mean he could have decided one day that he hated music and commanded that all who sing must be stoned to death if he wanted, right? So, if this is the answer, then in reality there are no moral absolutes, correct? God is stated to have changed his mind several times in the Old Testament, so what is good today may become a sin tomorrow.

  53. brandon says:

    1 john 3:4

    “Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness. SIN IS LAWLESSNESS.” The law in John’s mind here is not the U.S. Constitution. It is God’s law. It’s the expression of God’s revealed will for his creatures.

    Lawlessness is living as though your own ideas are superior to God’s. Lawlessness says, “God may demand it, but I don’t prefer it.” Lawlessness says, “God may promise it, but I don’t want it.” Lawlessness replaces God’s law with my contrary desires. I become a law to myself. Lawlessness is rebellion against the right of God to make laws and govern his creatures.

    So now we can see better what the Son of God came to destroy. The “works of the devil” are sin. Sin is lawlessness. And lawlessness is rebellion against the right of God to rule over us. The work of Satan is to tempt us to reject the authority of God and become like God ourselves. Satan works to nurture and cultivate the pride that puts its own desires above the law of God. This is lawlessness; this is the essence of sin; and this is what the Son of God came to destroy in you and me.

  54. Noogatiger says:

    So, where did the law come from?

    Is it just stuff God hated and made up a law against it?
    Was it stuff God hated because there were laws against it?


    If it is only lawless because God simply decided one day that he hated it, then there is no such thing as a moral absolute as Christians claim, God just decided he didn’t like it one day. The only moral absolute is God’s whim at any particular time. Once upon a time he didn’t mind polygamy, now he does. Once upon a time he didn’t mind slavery, now he does. Evil is not a moral absolute either, it is just something God didn’t like.

    Now, If God hates it because it was always lawless, then who defined those rules, who made the laws, it had to be defined even before God came along, right?

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